gauge them by their clothing, in this particular case, but there were differences, right? different degrees to how much you dressed up, and he noticed that and sells to differently. >> i think it's classic. i think of my own portfolio companies, and if we only had someone like him out in front, sometimes our sales folks, when you're doing projections before the customers in front of you, you think you can sell anything, and you know what the customer needs. but it's very different when you're actually engaging with a customer, and making the sale is so tough for small businesses. in that instance, he's reading his customer, and he's going in for the sale. >> there's nothing passive about what he's doing. do you have to be that active in order to make that sale? it's a lot of work. >> yeah. when i was watching that, i was thinking, this might be kind of a scary segment for a lot of people, especially aspiring entrepreneurs because a lot of people who are drawn to start a business, they want to do it because they're really passionate about something. they don't have that sales background, and salesmanship can really scare people off.